“Why do we have to suffer to get to heaven?”

Steve Brown:
Why do we have to suffer to get to heaven? The answer to that and other questions, on Key Life.

Matthew Porter:
If you think laughter isn’t spiritual or that faithfulness to God means conformity to Christian stereotypes, then this program probably isn’t for you. But if you’re looking for honest, Biblical answers to honest questions, welcome to Key Life. Here’s our host author and seminary professor Steve Brown, along with Pete Alwinson from ForgeBibleStudy.com.

Steve Brown:
Thank you Matthew. Hi Pete.

Pete Alwinson:
Hey man. Happy Friday.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, it is. I love Fridays now, but I never did when I was a pastor. It meant woe is me. I got that thing coming on Sunday and I haven’t written a word. And you never felt that because you stayed six months ahead, that used to imitate me to no end.

Pete Alwinson:
No, no, no, no. You thrive under pressure, man. You loved it.

Steve Brown:
Well, I do better when I’m scared. I really do. I run, I run faster when I’m scared.

Pete Alwinson:
Oh man.

Steve Brown:
That’s Pete Alwinson, by the way, go to ForgeTruth.com and if you’re in the central Florida area and you are a male, you might want to show up to one of the meetings there. There are three different, chapters, and they are absolutely amazing, lives are being changed. I’ve encountered some of your guys in some of my church things and they are well-taught, solid as rocks. And I always, whenever that happens and it happens often, I’m quite thankful for you. By the way, as you know, Pete comes in on Fridays and we answer questions and we do love your questions. We love to sit around and see what the Bible says, and we get informed too. You can call 1-800-KEY-LIFE, 24 7 and ask your question. You will record it. And, your name, your voice, not your name, we won’t do that to you, but your voice will be on our broadcast. Or you going to send your question to

Key Life Network
P.O. Box 5000
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in Canada. it’s

Key Life Canada
P.O. Box 28060
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or you can e-mail your question to [email protected]. And if you can help us financially, please do. We’ll be faithful. By the way you can give on your phone, you can text key life at 28950. 28950 and just follow the instructions. And if you can help us, do. If you can’t, we understand, say a prayer for us. And speaking of prayer, would you lead us in prayer? And then we’ll get to some of these questions.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s a good idea. Holy God, we come to you this week-end, this Friday at the end of this long week. We are so thankful that we are your children. And we revel in the reality that by faith in Christ, we become daughters and sons of the most high God. And that that is our new identity and always will be. And so, we praise you, we lift up your name, we honor you. Yet Father, we know, even at the end of this week, we have issues in our life that are not fixed yet. And we wonder if they ever will, relationships that will better, people that will forgive us or that we will forgive. And Lord, we need you and we want your grace to soften our hearts. We get so tough at times. And so, we pray that your work would continue in our lives. And this week-end we ask that you would use our pastors and priests and teachers and leaders. We thank you for all those that stand before us, that prepare to lead us and serve us by giving us your word. We just ask, Lord, use them, fill them with your spirit in a powerful way and set them on fire and may that fire get into our souls. Thank you for Key Life and Steve, and all those who do so much behind the scenes here. And we thank you for this ministry. Pray you’d bless it. And even this time of Q&A now, as we pray in your Holy Name, Lord Jesus. Amen.

Steve Brown:
Amen. Pete, this first question is an e-mail. Why do we have to suffer in order to get to heaven? And by the way, why do some people suffer more than others, even though they’re saved?

Pete Alwinson:
In order to get to heaven, you have to burn off, you have to suffer off your own sins.

Steve Brown:
Pete, quit this.

Pete Alwinson:
Well, I mean, Steve

Steve Brown:
But you’re saying it like you’re serious.

Pete Alwinson:
No, I’m not, but you know, the way the sentence is structured, the question is put, do we have to suffer in order to get to heaven? No, no we don’t.

Steve Brown:
And suffering or not suffering has nothing to do with it.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. I mean, Jesus did the suffering.

Steve Brown:
And if you have a theological logical view that says we never suffer, you’ve got to remember that the one who called you and loved you and saved you suffered. And he said, if I did, you will.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right.

Steve Brown:
So it’s a part of living in a fallen world. It just is awful. But you’ve got to say that God is in charge of that and the details of our life. I have no idea how to answer that question. I mean, some of the most godly people that I know suffer incredibly. And some of the worst, for instance me, I don’t even get a cold and I don’t understand that, man. I really don’t. And I, and I don’t think any, and anybody who says they do understand it, they’re lying. Don’t listen to them and don’t buy a used car from them.

Pete Alwinson:
I love that. And you know, there are times when I hear people suffering and I heard of a case the other day and I just say, what I go back to, what helps me deal with that a little bit, is I could pray for him right away. And then I can sympathize with them and I need that, empathize with them. And then I can say, well, to whom much is given much is required. I don’t get sick that much either. And so, for those that have gotten sick. My sister’s in the hospital right now with pneumonia and, out in California and I’ve been praying for her, but what it reminds me to do is to say, okay, I’ve got to use my good health, generally speaking, for the good of others.

Steve Brown:
That’s good. That’s really good.

Pete Alwinson:
Rather than say, I’m, you know, cause I’m so good, I don’t get sick.

Steve Brown:
You don’t say that in thunder storms, but you know, you, you look at the suffering and it’s sometimes I don’t know how people do it. I’m praying for a number of people, friends, you know, I’m old, so, that’s happening, and I’m praying that their plane would land gently. And I do pray and hope for that. And in most cases it will., but this is the bottom line, we can’t forget God’s faithful, and no matter what fire he calls you to go through. And I know when you think about it, you think I can’t do that, but you can. You get through it and God gives you what you need to get through it. And, I can give that testimony to a thousand people.

Pete Alwinson:
It is true though. The good thing about following Jesus for a long time is that we’ve suffered in different areas and he’s always come through.

Steve Brown:
Yeah. Every time.

Pete Alwinson:
And the Romans 8:28, all things work together for good passage.

Steve Brown:
Is true.

Pete Alwinson:
It’s absolutely true. And we’ve got many, many stories of it.

Steve Brown:
That’s so true. You know, I’ve been with, right now, we’re still talking about the tornadoes through Kentucky, it’s been awful. Those people lost their homes and I was praying. And I said, Lord, I don’t think I could deal with that. And he said, you did. I said, yeah, I’ve been there.

Pete Alwinson:
You lost everything in the hurricane.

Steve Brown:
I forgot. And there were tornadoes in the middle of that and it was, and I look back and think, I don’t want to do that again. But God was faithful and God has been faithful in every place in my life. And he will be in yours too.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. And so suffering shows us, as you’ve said before, how Christians suffer versus unbelievers do and suffering is used to shape our character. And it’s also to cause us to worship.

Steve Brown:
That’s true. Okay. Good question though. If grace is how it should live my Christian life, why do I feel so terribly guilty all the time, because you’re a messed up. See a psychiatrist, that’s what’s wrong with you. Don’t we all.

Pete Alwinson:
We’re here to help people.

Steve Brown:
No, we all do, you know, it’s why Martin Luther said, and he was so wise because he knew what it was like, he struggled with this as much as anybody I know. There were times he didn’t think he was saved. One time his wife came in and yelled at him and said, after all you preach, how can you even think that? And, so Martin Luther said that

We must preach the gospel to each other or we’ll get discouraged.

And the reason we do that is because we all struggle with that.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. That’s right. I know we do. And so, you know, we do struggle with guilt and I think a lot of times we don’t admit that we feel guilty. I think the longer we follow Jesus, sometimes we downplay that and that guilt morphs into shame and that we really feel, I don’t feel guilty as much as I just don’t feel like I’m a good person. I’m not. And Satan just uses that, I’m writing a blog on that right now about that whole idea of how I’m oftentimes in collusion with Satan. He tells me stuff and I say, oh yeah, I buy that a hundred percent.

Steve Brown:
You know, Jack Miller used to say, he’d be tempted. And Satan would say, go ahead. Jesus will forgive you, that’s what you teach. And Jack would say, I’m not doing that. And Satan would say, oh, don’t you believe in the love of God and his forgiveness? And then Jack would say, I’d fall. And as soon as he fell, Satan would say, you’re scum and you’re not even saved. We have to preach the gospel to each other.

Pete Alwinson:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Steve Brown:
What’s the difference between forgiveness and repentance?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, well, forgiveness is that act of literally having the guilt removed. How do you define and explain repentance?

Steve Brown:
Well, that was interesting, the way you defined it, having the guilt removed and repentance is agreeing with God that you needed for the guilt to be removed. I used to teach that forgiveness was when you spilt milk. You asked forgiveness and you’re forgiven, but repentance meant you got a mop and you cleaned it up and replace the milk, but that’s not good. That’s not Biblical.

Pete Alwinson:
Because repentance in that definition makes it sound like it’s what I do

Steve Brown:
exactly

Pete Alwinson:
to clean up my mess.

Steve Brown:
Exactly. And that’s God’s business. And so, repentance is the place where a Christian lives. Bill Bright used to teach, there was a little booklet called, Being Filled with the Holy Spirit, that you breathe out the sin and you breathe in the Spirit. And you do that by agreeing with God on what his assessment of what you’re doing, who you are, loved, messed up, sinful, all of that. And repentance is simply agreeing with God, sometimes with tears, but being aware and then knowing that the ball is in his court.

Pete Alwinson:
Exactly. That’s great. That’s great.

Steve Brown:
Well, I’d give you another question, but there’s not time to do that. I’d ask you to sing, but I couldn’t deal with that.

Pete Alwinson:
No way. I know, you would lose your salvation.

Steve Brown:
Now, we’ve used the time and I must say. Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.