“Is having a flag at church a form of idolatry?”

Steve Brown:
Is having a flag at church a form of idolatry? The answer to that and other questions, on Key Life.

Matthew Porter:
If you think laughter isn’t spiritual, or that faithfulness to God means conformity to Christian stereotypes, then this program probably isn’t for you. But if you’re looking for honest Biblical answers to hard questions, then welcome to Key Life. Here’s our host, author, and seminary professor Steve Brown, along with Pete Alwinson from ForgeTruth.

Steve Brown:
Thank you Matthew.

Pete Alwinson:
Hey, man.

Steve Brown:
Hi, Peter.

Pete Alwinson:
It’s Friday.

Steve Brown:
And Sunday’s coming.

Pete Alwinson:
Sunday’s coming and somebody else is preaching.

Steve Brown:
Makes a joyous week-end, doesn’t it?

Pete Alwinson:
Oh, man. You know, I teach a lot and you do too, but Sunday has a different tenor on it, so pray for your pastor.

Steve Brown:
Oh, every day pray for your pastor.

Pete Alwinson:
Amen.

Steve Brown:
You have no idea, what the pressure that is on somebody, and I did too. I did one on Wednesday night and one on Sunday morning. And like you, I can talk okay, but that’s too much. Do you know that pastors turn out five times the material any columnist or writer in America does.

Pete Alwinson:
Oh yeah, I’ve never thought of it that way, but I believe it 100%. Always creating new material.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, and we’re not pastors anymore, so we don’t have to ruin our week-end. That’s Pete, by the way, and go to ForgeTruth.com that website is so deep and so important. There’s a podcast there that’s weekly, that is amazing. It’s for men, but women are not barred from going. If you want to know what men are thinking, you might want to go and check it out. It’s ForgeTruth.com Pete, as you know, comes in each Friday and we spend the entire broadcast answering questions. We’re right 50 percent of the time. We’re just not sure which 50%, so you’ve got to get out your Bible and check what we say. But we love your questions. You can call 1-800-KEY-LIFE, 24 7, and record your question. Just follow the instructions. Or you can send your question to

Key Life Network
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in Canada, it’s

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And you can e-mail your question to [email protected] and if you can help us financially, we would very much appreciate it. And rise up and call you blessed. We’re a member of the ECFA in the States and CCCC in Canada. Both organizations check our books to make sure that we’re ethical. And we were ethical before they came along. I promise we’ll be faithful with your gift, if you can, if you can’t, we understand. Pete, why don’t you lead us in prayer and we’ll get to some of these questions.

Pete Alwinson:
You got it. Let’s pray together. Our Father, we come to you at the end of this week, on this Friday, and are just grateful that we are your children. We honor you and praise you, and we do need to be reminded after a long week that you are the God who restores our soul. You created us. You know us. You know our name. You know what we’ve been going through this week, what didn’t work out the way we wanted it to. And what you did in our lives that we don’t even know. So, we give you praise and honor, we give you glory. And we ask that Lord, you continue to make your gospel so clear to us that it transforms the very way we live. And we give you our lives and ask that this week-end even, by your Spirit, you would use our pastors and priests and teachers and leaders who stand before us and bring us into your presence. Lord, you’d use them to, by your Spirit, put your finger on areas of our lives that you want to transform, hope that needs to be increased, joy that needs to be given, truth that needs to be understood. So, we ask for great power in this week-end. Thank you now for this Q&A. We commit it to you. In Jesus’ strong name we pray, Amen.

Steve Brown:
Amen. Pete, this is an e-mail. How can we both worship Jesus as our Savior and yet also pledge allegiance to the flag of the country? When does idolatry or idol worship begin pertaining to the flag? And is it okay to have an American flag in the sanctuary?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, I mean it’s really good to ask these questions at this time because patriotism is sort of being attacked.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, it is. What do you mean, sort of?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, and what does it mean to be patriotic even? So, there’s a lot of ways to go at this. I guess one nutshell, one thing, one place to start would be to say, you know, we never did. I grew up with the American flag and the Christian flag in the church I grew up.

Steve Brown:
Yeah. Me too.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. And then the church I started, we never did put an American flag in there and partly because we just didn’t want there to be any confusion that the cross and the American flag were on the same level.

Steve Brown:
Right. That’s a good move.

Pete Alwinson:
Clearly, clearly they’re not. But patriotism is not anti-Biblical.

Steve Brown:
Absolutely not. In fact, you read the Book of Romans, it’s very clear that Paul, and he was, really kind of proud about being a Roman and being Jewish at the same time. And so, he referenced two nations that he was proud of. And I think it’s a sign, you know, one of the things I found out about a church, when I’d go speak at different churches, still do, is I ask the person who picks me up at the airport what he thinks of his pastor. And if he says, oh man, he’s something else, then the church is healthy. And if he says, well, I like him okay, but there’s some things that bother me. I know the church is not healthy. And that’s kind of true when you start talking about patriotism. If you, people say, look, I, we’re no different than anybody else. We’re just like everybody else, and we’re worse in a lot of ways. When I hear that, there’s a sickness there that is pretty scary to me. And especially when it’s being taught in educational institutions. And it’s pushed everywhere you go, that we are the oppressors, and that we as a nation, well, of course there are things wrong with our nation, just as there are things wrong with a lot, with every other nation on the face of the earth. Of course, we’re fallen human beings, and we do really bad things, but I’ll tell you something, when somebody says we’re the oppressor, and I’m ashamed to be American. We’ve got a sick culture. Something’s wrong, because there’s a lot to be proud of. And that’s true of you Canadians, too. I’m not just talking about Americans.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. That’s good. That’s so important to keep in mind. And I think we verge on idolatry as believers when we look for all of the answers to come from human politicians, or even state constitutions. Now, I love the Constitution of the United States, and I wish we’d follow it closely.

Steve Brown:
I wish we’d just follow it.

Pete Alwinson:
Well, I wish we’d just follow it. Right, right, right. So, you know, but I do think that when we start looking and Christians, we get so exercised about elections, we should be involved. I mean, I’m a news junkie, you know, my wife and I, so yeah, so we need to be involved, but I don’t expect human, I don’t expect a guy who runs for president to be a pastor.

Steve Brown:
Right.

Pete Alwinson:
I don’t expect for him to have all of the theological P’s and Q’s in line, but I expect for policies, the best policies to align with the Scriptures, that’s how I try to vote, but I don’t worship this country, I don’t worship a politician and my trust is in the Lord. And I think that’s what keeps us from idolatry.

Steve Brown:
That’s true. And once that’s settled and that’s your passion. And, you know, it’s easy to slip in that.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, it is.

Steve Brown:
It’s very easy. We have a very politicized culture, and you and I are both on the same side and are pretty passionate about it. I mean, we have some very strong political views.

Pete Alwinson:
Yep.

Steve Brown:
And it’s very easy because everywhere you turn, something is politicized and you get angry, then you get involved, then you start cussing and spitting. And when you start cussing and spitting, you’ve probably slipped over into idolatry.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, yeah probably. We do still as Christians need to live with joy, advancing the one kingdom that will never go away. And the one king that is the victor.

Steve Brown:
So true.

Pete Alwinson:
And we need, that keeps us positive, and that’s where I think Christians need to keep focusing on.

Steve Brown:
I agree. I agree with you. Augustine, when he wrote The City of God, it was written right after the fall of Rome.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
And he wept, but he got out his pen and he wrote that classic that said.

I worship a king that was never elected and will never be deposed.

Pete Alwinson:
Oh

Steve Brown:
That’s true.

Pete Alwinson:
I need to get that. That’s a great quote.

Steve Brown:
All right. What can I as a Christian do about my struggle with doubt?

Pete Alwinson:
Wow. I, you know, every Christian struggles with doubt. And if they, to use your expression, if they say they don’t, they lie about something, they lie about other things. I think doubt is a great precursor to good thinking.

Steve Brown:
And good faith.

Pete Alwinson:
And good faith and good faith. I think that when you have a doubt, you need to say, okay, what is that? Write it down. Think it out and process that doubt. Where does it come from? Is there any intellectual or emotional support for that doubt? Think it through. And then put it against Scripture and have a good conversation with somebody about it.

Steve Brown:
You know, and you can do that. You know, there’s different kinds of doubt. There’s the doubt, Os Guinness wrote a book on that, of two minds. It was republished and had a different title, and I forget what it was, but he pointed out there’s a kind of doubt that says, I don’t want to believe, because if this is true, I can’t be God.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, right.

Steve Brown:
And then there’s a different kind of doubt that says I want to believe, but I’m struggling with this. And God likes that kind of doubt.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
Because it leads to faith.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right.

Steve Brown:
And you need to know that Pete and I, Pete’s not nearly as old as I am, but he’s getting gray and he’s going, he’s getting up in years. And, but both of us have been doing this for a very long time. And we’ve read all the books. We’ve done all the checking. We’ve gone through all the doubts. And we’ve done it for more years than most of you have been alive. And it’s all true. It really is true. And if you know that, when you go do the research, this is true, but I got a problem, then you’ll have fun doing the research.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. That’s right. And use your doubts to fuel your growth.

Steve Brown:
It really is.

Pete Alwinson:
It really happens. It really happens.

Steve Brown:
So, don’t try to get rid of them, just deal with them properly. And tell Jesus you’re not sure about some things. And he will appreciate your honesty and your depth. We’ve got to go. Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.