“Is Judas in heaven?”

Steve Brown:
“Is Judas in heaven?” The answer to that and other questions, on Key Life.

Matthew Porter:
If you think laughter isn’t spiritual or that faithfulness to God means conformity to Christian stereotypes, then this program probably isn’t for you, but if you’re looking for honest, Biblical answers to honest questions, welcome to Key Life. Here’s our host, author, and seminary professor Steve Brown, along with Pete Alwinson from ForgeBibleStudy.com

Steve Brown:
Hey Pete.

Pete Alwinson:
Hey man. I can’t wait till you answer that and you’re going to get more questions and letters.

Steve Brown:
That’s true. You know, it is funny, isn’t it? How critical some people can be.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
I had a friend who ran a radio station outside of Chicago and they had to take in those days mutual news, and they were doing it at the top of the hour and there was a toothpaste commercial, and he said, you wouldn’t believe the letters I got critical of the toothpaste commercial? So, I don’t know about you, but I’ve decided, that goes with the turf.

Pete Alwinson:
It does. Yeah.

Steve Brown:
And we get a lot of nice comments too.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
I don’t want sound bad about this.

Pete Alwinson:
And you wear it well, Steve. I mean

Steve Brown:
I know, I’ve never

Pete Alwinson:
the scars on your face are retreating, they’re healing up.

Steve Brown:
That’s Pete Alwinson. And listen, you ought to go to ForgeTruth.com and if you’re in a Central Florida area, there are three meetings of ForgeTruth. And you can choose one and it’d be life changing to you if you’re a guy. Trust me on that. Pete, as you know, comes in and we answer questions and have done it for a lot of years, questions that you ask. And we love your questions. You can call 1-800-KEY-LIFE anytime you want. And if you have a question, just record it and we will often put you on the air. Or you can write to

Key Life Network
P.O. Box 5000
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if you live in Canada, it’s

Key Life Canada
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or you can e-mail your questions to [email protected]. And if you can help us financially, we promise we’ll squeeze every dime for the glory of God. Most people are not able to help us, and this is an expensive ministry. So, when you help us, you help your brothers and sisters in Christ and that makes you a champion. And if you can’t, we understand, I really mean that. If you think of it, say a prayer for this ministry. And Pete, why don’t you say a prayer and then we’ll turn to these questions.

Pete Alwinson:
You got it. You got it. Let’s pray. Our Holy God, it is so good to be able to come to you right now and to know that we can talk to the God who created us, the God who does love us, and the God who has redeemed us and then cares for us. And so, we honor you. We praise you at the end of a long week, Lord, there are things that we know now, as we look back that you were in charge of all the time. So, thank you for your sovereign power, your goodness, your mercy. Thank you that you have a plan that is better than our plan, that even when our ideas and our plans come to nothing, your plans are always better. And so, we thank you that you’re good and you do good to us. Help us to always have your perspective, Father, we pray. And Lord, we ask that you would enable us to worship you this week-end and get your perspective even more as we adjoin in the body of believers in worship and praise and adoration. And we do pray for those that lead us, those that prepare for us putting the finishing touches on the services right now. We ask that, Lord, you by your Spirit, would show up in a powerful way. And cause your church to stand up triumphant in the grace of Christ and find your joy and live well in this world until you come back, Jesus. And now, we commit this time of Q&A to you and ask that you’d be honored and glorified. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

Steve Brown:
Amen. Pete, let’s go to our phone lines.

Caller 1:
When Judas went to the other place, could you explain to me what the other place was?

Steve Brown:
It was not a pleasant place. That’s a good question.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
People have questions, but you know, the Scripture’s pretty clear, isn’t it?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. No, it’s, he is the son of perdition, so that’s hell. He was, he is in hell. We’re not going to see him in heaven.

Steve Brown:
And Satan entered into him. Did you know, by the way, he was not unredeemable. You know, the only difference between Judas and Peter, they both did really bad stuff, is that Peter stayed around and ran to Jesus. And Judas hung himself.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. Right.

Steve Brown:
And that’s kind of a final end when you can’t repent after you’ve hung yourself. It’s too late to repent and that’s kind of scary. There was a cult in the early church that was built around Judas. I’m told in something that I read and that was just not proper.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. Right.

Steve Brown:
Cause as you said, some people are going to be lost.

Pete Alwinson:
Satan’s counterfeit kingdom is real. I think we see it in America today, but in John 13, it’s clear Satan entered into him. And this didn’t surprise Jesus. It was a part of the eternal plan of God, as hard as it is for us to grasp all of that.

Steve Brown:
And you know, the interesting thing is that what he did is understandable. There are those who have suggested, and I personally believe this is true, that this was his way cause he was a zealot to force Jesus to be what he wanted Jesus to be. And he thought, you know, if I sell my soul and the soldiers come after him, he’ll get his troops together and, and do what a Messiah is supposed to do. And, you know, understanding or mistaken is not an excuse in those kinds of situations.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
The day is going to come when there are no excuses, even if understandable ones, there are no excuses.

Pete Alwinson:
Right. Right.

Steve Brown:
Because God is God and he’s the only way through Jesus that you get to heaven.

Pete Alwinson:
Well, that is so true, and that is really the essence of Christianity is that, Jesus said.

I am the way, the truth, the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.

Steve Brown:
That’s true.

Pete Alwinson:
And there is a counterfeit to that and a lot of people are out there pursuing that as well.

Steve Brown:
Does, you know, if Judas had been in the church, would you have exercised church discipline?

Pete Alwinson:
You mean?

Steve Brown:
Yeah.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
Well, that brings me to the question, what I thought was a great transition.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
This is an e-mail. Does the Bible teach church discipline? And how should it be carried out?

Pete Alwinson:
Yes. The Bible does, very clear. Jesus actually, as the head of the church instituted Matthew 18. Right?

Steve Brown:
Very clear.

Pete Alwinson:
Very clear. And so the pattern is, you know, if you see your brother sin, go confront him. Talk to him.

Steve Brown:
Yeah. And Calvin said, this is one of the true signs of the true church.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. That’s right.

Steve Brown:
And that’s true. Do we do discipline wrong sometimes?

Pete Alwinson:
You know, we can, I think a lot of times we do. You know, we’ll go talk about it. We’ll bring it up in prayer meetings, somebody’s sin and, or we’ll attack them mercilessly. But really there’s a gracious way of coming to people when we see them in real sin, not just if we differ with them.

Steve Brown:
Yeah. And I think we have that responsibility as part of the family.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
Very clearly. But discipline’s another step.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
You know, that’s the step that follows it. And it’s never for sin, it’s for a lack of repentance.

Pete Alwinson:
That, that’s really true. Because if you say I’ve done something wrong and you show me in Scripture where it’s clear that I did something wrong, I ought to say, boy, you’re right, sorry. You know, Steve, thank you for pointing that out. And I ought to be repenting right there.

Steve Brown:
And if it were for sin, discipline, were for sin, you and I’d be the only ones left and I worry about you.

Pete Alwinson:
I know, man. It’s really true. So, even in our denomination, we call it contumacy. Sort of that, I will not repent. I’m not going to say I did wrong.

Steve Brown:
Have you ever excommunicated anybody?

Pete Alwinson:
You know, we did have to do that one time in,

Steve Brown:
I did it one time in my ministry.

Pete Alwinson:
Isn’t that something? Yeah.

Steve Brown:
And I hated it.

Pete Alwinson:
I know. I hated the process. But there is a, the goal is for the glory of Christ and the purity of the church. Again, it’s not for sin, it’s, it’s for rebelliousness. We had a leader in a key position who was abusing the church credit card for bad reasons. And we had, he wouldn’t repent and we had him dead to rights. And for our people and for the church and for the pure, in Christ’s name, we had to do something. He forced our hand. We didn’t want to.

Steve Brown:
You know, discipline is the sign of the true church.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
When discipline becomes the sign of the church, we’re doing something wrong.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. I like how you put that. It’s one of the signs.

Steve Brown:
Yeah.

Pete Alwinson:
One of the signs of the true churches, true Biblical preaching, true Biblical worship, true government by duly authorized leaders. Right?

Steve Brown:
Right.

Pete Alwinson:
And then discipline is certainly one of those, one of those aspects along with the Lord’s Supper and the sacraments.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, I agree.

Pete Alwinson:
Those are the marks of,

Steve Brown:
and that is, I hate it. I just, I really do hate it.

Pete Alwinson:
I know. If you like it, if you like, it ought not to be in, in spiritual leadership at a church.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, that’s true. How can I hold on to God?

Pete Alwinson:
Mm-hmm. Wow.

Steve Brown:
You don’t, do you?

Pete Alwinson:

Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.

There is that sense of which we have a place in drawing near to God, but the doctrine of providence and

Steve Brown:
He holds onto you.

Pete Alwinson:
He holds onto us. Yes.

Steve Brown:
Sometimes, it’s just the desire and even the desire, says Paul, is from him.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Brown:
So, it’s all by his grace.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. It’s all by grace.

Steve Brown:
That’s true.

Pete Alwinson:
We’re saved by grace. We’re held by grace. We grow by grace.

Steve Brown:
And what you said about, you know, I’m, I am not, I don’t want to be defensive about my sin. I’m messed up. And I, you know, that’s the part of my witness.

Pete Alwinson:
Mm-hmm.

Steve Brown:
If that’s not the witness of the church, we’ve got a problem. And going back to discipline, we don’t discipline for sin. We’re all sinners.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Brown:
But something is happening that makes us smell like Jesus too. Do you have any advice for my prayer life? That’s from an e-mail.

Pete Alwinson:
Oh boy. Pray.

Steve Brown:
Yeah. Listen, I think we’re about to run out of time. We got about less than a minute.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
You know what I’ve found, and I think we’ve answered this recently, so I maybe am repeating myself, but don’t expect too much of yourself. Take five minutes and spend it with him and increase it when you have to and when you have to, you’ll be glad and it won’t be a chore to you.

Pete Alwinson:
So true. So true. Real quick, use the Lord’s Prayer as a guideline. It’s a great way to jumpstart in the major areas of prayer.

Steve Brown:
That’s good stuff. But it’s also a short prayer, so, if you’ll only use the prayer without a guideline, that can be helpful too.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, right.

Steve Brown:
We’ve got to go, which is helpful. Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.