It’s the Holy Spirit. Let’s fight about it!

Steve Brown:
It’s the Holy Spirit, and let’s fight about it, on this edition of Key Life.

Matthew Porter:
This is Key Life. We’re here to let you know that because of what Jesus has done, God will never be angry at you again. Justin Holcomb has been teaching us all this week. Justin is an Episcopal priest, an author, and he teaches at Reformed Theological Seminary.

Steve Brown:
Hey Justin. This has been a fun week. You know,

Justin Holcomb:
So far, wait ’til we fight.

Steve Brown:
I don’t expect, when you the Bishop in your studio, you don’t expect parties, but you are a party looking for a place to happen. And I know why they voted for you. Okay. Listen, we’ve been talking about the Holy Spirit, what the Scripture says it is, the gifts of the Spirit, the Fruit of the Spirit, the joy of the Spirit. But Justin, you and I know that Christians fight about this doctrine a good deal.

Justin Holcomb:
Sure do.

Steve Brown:
So, will you settle all of those arguments and those fights and those debates?

Justin Holcomb:
Yeah, easily.

Steve Brown:
I’m expecting that from you during this broadcast.

Justin Holcomb:
Yeah. Well, let’s go for it. Let’s see what we can do in 13 minutes or so.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, right.

Justin Holcomb:
Well, the first thing for us to, we’re going to talk about gifts and acts and all that kind of stuff, might as well. And what’s the difference between baptism and filling? There’s a whole bunch of different places where we could have arguments and we can see what we can cover. Big thing we need to look at, before we even get to acts and tongues, is just the idea of the gifts of the Spirit, because too many people think gifts of the Spirit mean, oh yeah, all of those extraordinary things, but the way the Bible, there’s four different places where gifts are talked about, I Corinthians 12: 7 through 10, which are all about like miracles and healings and tongues and prophecy and discerning of spirits. I Corinthians 12:28 through 30 have like apostles, prophets and teachers. Romans 12 is about actions. Ephesians 4 are about offices. So, gifts of the Spirit, if you look under gifts of the Spirit, some of them are offices for the church and some of them are actions that are done. That’s important just to keep that in mind. The other thing we need to talk about is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. People think that being baptized in or filled, which are not exactly the same thing. I think baptism of the Holy Spirit is when we are united in Christ and made new, regenerated, all of that kind of thing. That’s a conversion type of thing and being filled as the ongoing work of the Spirit. And people debate about that, so I’m going to put that on the table. And then tongues, let’s just go to the tongues one because you have four outpourings of the Holy Spirit and we might spend our whole time here. Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10:11, Acts 19. There’s four times the Holy Spirit is poured out on people. And when that happens, people speak in tongues. And so, people would say, well, and I used to say this, so I’m speaking as someone who used to say to people, unless you speak in tongues, you don’t have the Holy Spirit and you’re not a Christian. I told my Southern Baptist evangelist friend that he was going to hell because he didn’t speak in tongues. I was near.

Steve Brown:
I hope you’ve repented and gone back and told him you’ve repented.

Justin Holcomb:
Oh, I sure did.

Steve Brown:
Okay, go ahead.

Justin Holcomb:
Horrible. So, what’s happening in Acts? Acts 2, the Holy Spirit is poured out on a group of people who then speak in tongues. We’ve got to define what that is, and then that was for the Holy Spirit being poured out on Jews. Acts 8 was on Samaritans, which were considered half breeds. They were, no one really like the Samaritans. Jews not like them. So, that was a shock. It was, this is more of a, the Holy Spirit, God’s actually doing something with the Samaritans and then in Acts 10 and 11 is the Gentiles, the Holy Spirit’s poured out on Gentiles and they speak in tongues just like the Jews did. And so it was, and then Acts 19 is followers of John the Baptist who didn’t know everything that had taken place yet. And so, it’s like a salvation time warp. And so, the whole point of the Holy Spirit in Acts being poured out is to show is this unification of the people of God, that it’s not just for the Jews. It’s not just for the people who are kind of like Jews. It’s also for the Gentiles. And so, it’s actually trying to do the inclusive unity body of Christ of different groups of people. Less about some type of prayer language. I don’t believe tongues is a prayer language. I believe it’s the gift of being, I think in Acts, the gift of tongues is the ability to speak in a language that the speaker does not know, is a miracle. And it’s a language known to the hearers, but not by the speaker. And it’s an intelligible utterance of the gospel in actual languages unknown previously to the speaker. That’s how I interpret tongues. I know people would say that everyone believes that can happening is likely what happened in Acts. Then they also say, well, some type of heavenly language, which I don’t believe that tongues is a heavenly language. And that’s where a lot of debate takes place. I get that. So, you go Steve. I’m doing all the danger talking.

Steve Brown:
Well, listen, I’d rather you be the controversial one and you get the letters instead of me. But I agree with what you just said. And I think there are those Christians and they’re generally on the reformed side of with that heritage, say that those extraordinary gifts came to an end and the substitution was the word of God. And I don’t believe the Bible teaches that.

Justin Holcomb:
Me neither.

Steve Brown:
Well, I know you don’t because you’re smart, especially when you agree with me, but I don’t think God is as uptight about it as some Christians are. You know, some Christians, you were uptight because somebody didn’t speak in tongues. Others are uptight because they do. And God says apox on all of you. Because that’s not a big deal. And I think he’s, some people think they have a prayer language. It may or may not be, you know, we’ll know for sure when we get home. But I frankly think that God says, Well, that’s not exactly what I had in mind, but if you feel better, go for it. And I’m not being flippant or blasphemous. I really believe God is not as uptight as Calvinists are or as Pentecostals are.

Justin Holcomb:
Amen. Both, because what, both of them are trying to take acts as just normative Christian behavior today. And they’re just interpreting it differently. They say, no, this, it should be a very charismatic Pentecostal experience, or that’s, that should not be because that was only for extraordinary moments and we’re done. As opposed to saying, okay are most of the gifts available for today? Most Christians would say, yes. If you look at that list, offices of the church, hospitality, exhortation, I mean, most of that list, absolutely. There’s really only two or three that people debate about tongues and interpretation and what does prophecy mean? Miraculous healings, is God still healing people? Absolutely. He’s miraculously? Every Christian says, yes, absolutely. He’s doing that. Is he doing it on TV and people give more money? Sometimes he probably does, cause he likes to just mess with people, but not all the time. And so, most people would say, yeah, like, let’s be really honest. Most people think most of the gifts are still around. There’s really just a few that people are debating about. And let’s say, I mean, most of the reasons for these gifts, I mean, the signs in the Bible, signs were usually clustered around a leader that God was vindicating. So, it happened with Moses, happened with Jesus and it happened with the apostle. These miraculous signs are actually a way of God going, no, what they’re saying is true. Look at this, getting some attention on them and what they’re actually saying. I’m comfortable with God doing all those signs at that time for that reason. But here’s the other thing is God could totally be doing that. Especially, I think he probably especially does it in missionary settings where people have never had Scriptures or heard the gospel would then get their attention to do what God’s always done. God’s been, he didn’t only do signs around clustered around major leaders. He did him whenever God wanted to do him for whatever his purposes were. So, it’s when we try to contain God and domesticate God with regard to the gifts being all the time or never ever that we really get, that’s why I really like your disposition of like, maybe it’s not a heavenly language. If you think it is, then there’s a, you have verses for that. It’s not like you’re making that up. There are verses about uttering and when we don’t know how to pray and in the tongues of angels, like there’s, I get why people would say that. And so, there’s some charity would be helpful in this conversation.

Steve Brown:
You know, we get into trouble when we try to put God in our box. You know, God dislikes that. He does as he pleases. And sometimes he does stuff just to remind us that I’m, you don’t get a vote, I’m doing what I’m going to do, and I’m going to do it right, and I’m the boss, so deal with it. And we start by doing what you said on both sides of these issues. We want to dictate to God what he can and can’t do. And God kicks that pot to pieces.

Justin Holcomb:
Check this out, this is I Corinthians 13. Paul uses three extraordinary gifts, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, and then he compares those to three ordinary gifts, faith, hope, and love. And he says, Hey, one’s going to cease, one’s going to pass away, and the other one’s not going to pass away. Regardless of when tongues, interpretation, and prophecy cease or don’t cease. What will never pass away, our faith, hope, and love. Those are the, that’s what, if that’s what marked us as Christians in the body of Christ, how wonderful would that be?

Steve Brown:
Yeah, it would. And you know, when you say that to a congregation, God’s people respond. They go, Oh, that’s true.

Justin Holcomb:
They respond in humility and the Fruit of the Spirit.

Steve Brown:
I know. And that’s the doctrine of the Holy Spirit in practice, in our worship, in our walk, in our relationships with each other. Justin, you are such a gift.

Justin Holcomb:
Likewise.

Steve Brown:
You don’t even know it. Thanks for spending this time with us as we talked about the Holy Spirit. I hope you listened. I hope you took notes. I hope you got it right. You will be tested on this material. You think about that. Amen.

Matthew Porter:
Thank you Steve and Justin, what a lively and enlightening week of teaching on the Spirit that gives life. And if you enjoyed it, consider swinging by keylife.org where you can listen again and share with a friend. Don’t forget, come back tomorrow for Friday Q&A. On the docket tomorrow for Steve and Pete is this question. Why did God bother with Adam and Eve? Tune in to find out. Well, I’ve mentioned a few times that Steve has a book on the Holy Spirit. It’s called Follow the Wind. Well, we took excerpts from that book to create a special booklet. Actually, it’s most of the last chapter of the book. We would love to send you that booklet for free. And getting your copy is easy. Just call us right now at 1-800-KEY-LIFE that’s 1-800-539-5433. You can also e-mail [email protected] to ask for that booklet. Or to mail your request, go to keylife.org/contact to find our mailing addresses. Again, just ask for your free copy of the booklet about the Holy Spirit. And finally, if you value the work of Key Life, would you join us in that work through your financial support? You can charge a gift on your credit card or include a gift in your envelope. Or you can now give safely and securely through text. Just pick up your phone right now and text Key Life to 28950 that’s Key Life, one word, two words. It doesn’t matter. Text that to 28950 and then follow the instructions. Key Life is a member of ECFA in the States and CCCC in Canada. And as always, Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.