“How do you fit law and grace together?”

Steve Brown:
“How do you fit law and grace together?” The answer to that and other questions, on this edition of Key Life.

Matthew Porter:
If you think laughter isn’t spiritual or that faithfulness to God means conformity to Christian stereotypes, then this program probably isn’t for you, but if you’re looking for honest, Biblical answers to honest questions, welcome to Key Life. Here’s our host, author, and seminary professor Steve Brown, along with Pete Alwinson from ForgeBibleStudy.com.

Steve Brown:
Thank you Matthew. Hi Pete.

Pete Alwinson:
Hey Steve. How you doing?

Steve Brown:
Doing good.

Pete Alwinson:
You’re here. I’m here. Here we go.

Steve Brown:
Listen, it doesn’t get better than this. That’s Pete Alwinson. I’ve urged you, you never listen to me. Go to ForgeTruth.Com and you’ll thank me for having told you about it. There’s a tremendous podcast there, so much video and audio and written material. Now, women can go there, it’s not limited to men, but it’s basically designed for men as Forge is. So, go there and you’ll be glad. You can find out what your guys are thinking. And if you’re a guy, you’ll find out it’s life changing in significant ways. Pete comes in, as you know, every Friday and we answer questions together. We’ve been doing that for a long time. And we love your questions. We laugh with you. We think with you. We tell you when we don’t have the foggiest, so you can’t get angry at us, we’re doing the best we can. So, we love to get your questions. You can ask your question anytime by calling 1-800-KEY-LIFE and recording your question. And sometimes we put your voice on the air. You can send your questions to

Key Life Network
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in Canada, it’s

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or you can e-mail your question to [email protected] and if you can help us financially, do. We’re a member of the ECFA in the States and CCCC in Canada. Those are organizations that oversee our books to make sure we’re ethical. And we always have been before those organizations were there. You can charge it on your credit card, and we’ll rise up and call you blessed. And if you can’t help, we’ll still rise up and call you blessed, if you’ll say a prayer for us. Pete, pray for us, and then we’ll get to these questions.

Pete Alwinson:
All right. Let’s pray together. Our Father, we do come into your presence today. What a joy it is to stop and to call you Father, the God of the Universe, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the one who is, the one who was, the one who is to come. We honor you and praise you for being the God who spoke and created all things out of nothing. And Lord, we reflect on your power as well as your majesty, your kindness, your mercy, and your grace. And Lord, today at the end of this week, we rest and we need to rest in you. And so, you know us, you know those things that keep us keyed up and uptight and angry, fearful. And so, Father, we pray that you would enable us to come and bring those things to you and relax in you, knowing that we are forgiven and knowing that because of Christ, all things work together for good to those who are called according to your purpose. So Lord, we need you. And this week-end, we look forward to worship and how that worship at church with your people and with your leaders will bring us to our knees and then rise up and enable us to call you blessed. And so, we lift up our pastors, teachers, worship directors. Father, thank you for all those men, women who do so much behind the scenes to prepare us to worship. Bless them. Bless this time of Q&A now. We pray in Jesus’ Holy Name. Amen.

Steve Brown:
Amen. Pete, this first question’s an e-mail how do grace and law fit together?

Pete Alwinson:
Good question.

Steve Brown:
It is.

Pete Alwinson:
And it really is a major part of New Testament, Old Testament, the relationship between Old Testament and New Testament. It’s a huge question.

Steve Brown:
You know, you have some Christians who say, you know, they don’t fit together. Once you’re a Christian, it’s grace, we’re no longer under the law, it doesn’t count.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
Not true.

Pete Alwinson:
Not true.

Steve Brown:
And it’s not true Biblically.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. And one thing I think historically Biblically, is to keep in mind is that God rescued Israel from Egypt before the law came, He rescued them by grace before he gave the law. So, the law was never a means for salvation, that if you kept the law, you could earn your salvation. It was a means, it was a way for God’s people to live once they’d been rescued.

Steve Brown:
And to be successful in living.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s exactly right.

Steve Brown:
It wasn’t designed to cause us to be miserable.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right.

Steve Brown:
It was designed to cause us to be successful.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right.

Steve Brown:
And to have full and joyful lives.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, I love that.

Steve Brown:
What’s the purpose of the law? There are three, classically.

Pete Alwinson:
Classically.

Steve Brown:
They say there are three uses of the law. What are those?

Pete Alwinson:
Well, you know that, there’s a couple of ways to put this and we could talk about the civil use of the law that Israel used the law to regulate the theocracy of Israel. There was a ceremonial use of the law that pointed them to the coming Messiah. Another way of looking at this is to talk about the second use of the law that Luther talked about, right? It really was a tutor to Christ because as we try to keep the law, we realized we can’t do it. And then Calvin tended to emphasize the third use of the law, if I got that right.

Steve Brown:
Absolutely.

Pete Alwinson:
And what was that?

Steve Brown:
We got better and better by doing it. And there’s some truth to that. Although Luther would have said, no, there isn’t. He was not big on the third use of the law, but it does, it lets us know what is pleasing to God. And it also allows us to measure the progress we’re making. I mean, I’m better. I’m not a lot better, but I’m better than I was. And how do I know that? Because I feel better? No. Because I have the law to measure my getting better or not, and when I don’t, I’m forgiven.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right.

Steve Brown:
So, it’s a win, win deal, isn’t it?

Pete Alwinson:
It really is. It really is. The law is that narrow way, that Jesus talks about. And Luther and Calvin are both right. You know the law does show us that we can’t live up to it and we need a Savior and that once we’re saved, it guides us. Jeremiah 31:31 said.

God would put the law on our hearts.

Steve Brown:
Yeah.

Pete Alwinson:
And that’s been fulfilled. And so, that’s why Steve, we feel guilty when we sin because the law convicts us.

Steve Brown:
That’s right.

Pete Alwinson:
And then we repent, get forgiveness and say, now, how should I do this right?

Steve Brown:
Yeah. Let me do this right. And if you don’t do it right, even Peter said.

How often do I have to forgive my brother?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
You know, he’s been doing this for a lot and I’ve done it seven times. And then Jesus says, Forever.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
That’s what he means. So, we’re still forgiven and that’s the reason we get better.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. That’s right. Exactly. So, the law is important. When he says we’re not under law, but under grace in the New Testament, what that means is we’re not under the condemnation of the law anymore, not that that God’s moral law could ever change.

Steve Brown:
That’s so true. Good stuff, you guys. I hope you were listening. Hey, let’s go to our phone lines.

Caller 1:
My question is, what’s the difference between Jews and Hebrews?

Steve Brown:
Interesting question. You have a friend who thinks that’s a very big deal, right?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, I think there are some people that want to make a distinction, and it’s probably around history, that in the Old Testament, generally speaking, they’re called Israelites, by the New Testament, we do see that they use the word Jews. Which comes from the tribe of Judah, right?

Steve Brown:
Right, of course. If you… But God doesn’t say, I can’t believe you said Hebrew, you should have said Jews, you’re probably going to hell for… You know, I’ve never been called on that, ever, not even once. So, it’s a pretty loose, I mean, it’s not something you ought to stay awake at night. Comes from the word Judah, which is the tribe of Judah, the extent tribe, when everything started falling apart and it became kind of a name for everybody, it was a part of the covenant people of God. And I suspect that there were people in the Old Testament that were called Jews. I can’t call up a text, but given that it comes from Judah, I can’t imagine it not ever being said that way.

Pete Alwinson:
Right.

Steve Brown:
But probably Israelites most of the time.

Pete Alwinson:
And Hebrews, right?

Steve Brown:
And Hebrews.

Pete Alwinson:
So those, they were the Hebrews, they were the Israelites. Of course, they didn’t called the the Israelites until after Jacob’s name was changed.

Steve Brown:
That’s true.

Pete Alwinson:
So, there is that, but Hebrews is the oldest term, Israelites. And then by the New Testament time that idea of being called the Jews is real. That tribal name for Judah was bestowed on everybody to some extent.

Steve Brown:
You know, I have an e-mail question here and the segue is incredible. I’m a professional.

Pete Alwinson:
You are.

Steve Brown:
Well, this is an e-mail. What does the Bible teach about Israel?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, there it is, right? So, they are still God’s chosen people. Romans says the gifts of calling of God are irrevocable. He’s not done with them. He is redeeming them to this day, and will continue to do so.

Steve Brown:
That’s true. And we need to also, as Christians, you know, one of the great sins of Christianity, in terms of our history, has been anti-Semitism. Yeah, it has been. I mean, some really, and even Martin Luther, wrote toward the end of his life some things that were just plain horrible. And so, and most Jews know that, by the way, practicing Jews do. So, if you have Jewish friends and you’re going to talk about Jesus, you probably ought to ask forgiveness for some things that have been done in the past.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s a good point. I had dinner last week with two Israel, young Israelis travel agents who are here in the United States, completed Jews, or Messianic Jews as what they call themselves, Messianic Jews. And as they are introduced to other people, they’ll say, I’m a Messianic Jew. They won’t say I’m a Christian, but the other Israelis know that means I’m a Christian.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, right.

Pete Alwinson:
There’s, they’re growing in Israel and it’s a powerful group.

Steve Brown:
They really are. I’ve been to Israel and spent a number of very good meals with Messianic Jews.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s great.

Steve Brown:
And by the way, completed Jew is probably not a good thing to say.

Pete Alwinson:
Probably not.

Steve Brown:
It makes them sound like, you know, there’s something missing that’s really bad.

Pete Alwinson:
At one time, evangelicals used that term, but I would stay away from it.

Steve Brown:
Yeah. Me too. And, well, if you have Jewish friends, tell them you’re sorry, then tell them about Jesus. You’d be surprised the difference that that makes. And saying to your Jewish friends, I know what Christians have done. I know the pain that has been caused. Please forgive me on the part of my family. Hey, we’ve got to go. Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.